Text by Lucas Pantoja
Interview with Mark Bryan
In 2020 Mark Bryan, an American robotic engineer living in Germany, emerged as an Instagram fashion sensation seemingly out of nowhere, for his playful gender-bending style which has garnered him a lengthy list of captivated followers (sitting at 615K currently) and includes some of the fashion industry’s biggest names from Carine Roitfeld to Lotta Volkova. Though it wasn’t Bryan’s style alone that brought him digital fame, as cross-dressing is nothing new and those from the LGBTQ+ community have courageously been doing it for a long time now. Rather, it is the unique context with which Bryan – a straight cis male in his 60s, grandfather of four, and noted American football coach – adorns a uniform of skirts and high heels that has made him so intriguing. Two years after his Instagram success, the unexpected influencer has plenty of credits under his belt, such as stories with some of fashion’s biggest publications like Vogue Germany and Interview Magazine, as well as modeling experiences in Paris fashion week. Most recently he found himself in a controversy after an interview aired with the German television program Beyond Fashion, surprising many of his fans in the LGBTQ+ community with his statements hoping to distance himself from a community of followers that supported him from early on in his fame. The interview is a tense piece in which the host, Avi Jakobs, tears up in shock at Bryan’s questionable responses regarding his relationship with the queer community and his ambition to wear women’s clothing as a purely stylistic choice. We had the chance to speak with Bryan over email regarding his latest controversy, his upbringing in Texas and the early fashion memories that shaped him, plus much more.
In 2010 you moved from Texas to a town in the south of Germany. Do you feel well-accustomed to life in Germany and Europe in general at this point?
Yes, people always ask me how I like living in Germany. My typical reply is that I love everything about Germany but the weather. In Texas, you get 300+ days of sunshine and here you get 300+ days of clouds and rain. Maybe a bit over-exaggerated. I struggle with the language. German is a very difficult language to learn. Even when growing up in Texas, I struggled to learn Spanish. I like to think it’s like walking in high heels — for some, it’s natural and for others, it’s not! And the people here are so kind and understanding.
Was Texas where you spent most of your time growing up?
Yes, West Texas to be more precise. From the day I was born to graduating from college I lived in one place. Then moved to Dallas after graduation. Then lived there mostly till moving to Germany.
What kind of environment did you grow up in, and do you feel that’s played a part in your comfort in experimenting with dress codes?
I grew up in a traditional home. My mother taught us to always look our best, to be clean, our clothing wrinkle-free, and of course to match. Of course, she never expected that someday I’d be wearing high heels and skirts! But even growing up in a very conservative time, I always felt the freedom to express myself through clothing. I always enjoyed wearing a suit and tie, even when young going to church and other events that required a suit, even though the suit wasn’t required.
#DeGenderFashion is what we all want, but I want to take it even further. To de-sexualize fashion. I think this is where I differ from the LGBTQ community. The LGBTQ community has used fashion as a form of expressing their sexuality. Again, I have no problem with that. But clothing/fashion should not dictate gender #DeGenderFashion AND sexual orientation. A person is free to wear what they want, thanks to the LGBTQ community, but fashion, as a causality, is seen as an expression of sexual orientation as a result of their struggles.
So when I said that the LGBTQ community has made it hard on me, I was stating my fight to de- sexualize fashion where people can wear what they want without having their sexuality questioned. I’m fighting a separate war, and it’s against the stigma that the LGBTQ community fought for. And of course, not wanting to disrespect the LGBTQ community, but it’s hard to make that distinction.
What’s your earliest fashion memory? Whether it was the first time: you were awestruck by a garment or advertisement; or experimented with your style?
Perhaps when the plaid baggy pants and the platform high heels were popular in the early 70s. Maybe my first attempt at doing something that was considered trendy and fashionable. Also, I was aware that you never mix brands. For example, If wearing Adidas shorts or a t-shirt, you didn’t wear Puma shoes. So I was aware of branding even at a young age. Later, in college, my first must-have brand was Ralph Lauren and their polo shirts.
You’ve made a career for yourself in engineering and coaching American football, interests we don’t immediately associate with fashion. Nonetheless, has a fashion or personal style always been something important to you, even before you started wearing heels regularly?
I think the way we look and dress reveals a very important part of ourselves. I still wear a jacket and tie whenever possible. Even with the relaxed dress codes in the office I always continued to be overdressed. So yes, fashion is very important to me, I consider it a way to express myself with total freedom. I can choose what to wear, what goes with what, and create my style, which, in my personal opinion, is like a personal brand even if you are away from public opinion or social media.
Have you inspired any of your friends or family to start wearing clothes outside of their respective gender?
No. I don’t think so. That’s up to them and their comfort level. I’d never encourage anyone to do something they weren’t comfortable doing regarding fashion, but I hope to send a message that we can truly be ourselves regardless of what others think.
You recently appeared in a controversial interview on ARD Mediathek’s Beyond Fashion: would you mind speaking on the comments you made that have upset many people, particularly those in the LGBTQIA+ community?
I’m not sure why people think I’ve turned my back on the LGBTQ community. I understand that the LGBTQ community has made it possible for me to legally wear a skirt in public. And yet, if I don’t support the community in some way on my platform, I’m turning my back on them. That is not my intention.
My agenda has always been that clothing doesn’t dictate a person’s sexual orientation or gender. When I said I wasn’t fighting for the community but wasn’t fighting against them either, that meant I wanted to stay neutral. I’m a straight male, what I wear has nothing to do with sexuality. It’s a fashion statement only. It doesn’t mean I don’t respect the community and understand the hardships they have endured to get to where they are today. But to assume I’d fight for them is just that, an assumption. But in a way, I am fighting for the LGBTQ community, and that’s why so many in the community still see me as an ally. Just with me being seen in public or pictures or videos of me on my social media platforms, shows that anyone can wear non-gender conforming clothing. But it’s not fighting specifically for the LGBTQ community, but for everyone.
When I mentioned separation, I was talking about separating fashion from a form of sexual expression. Many in the LGBTQ community use clothing as a way to express their sexuality, which is ok. I’ve said several times, everyone should be free to express themselves, either through fashion or other means. But…. many outside the community and many inside the community associate wearing clothes from another gender to be a form of sexual expression only. It’s hard for them to comprehend that it can be just a fashion statement. So I try to keep my distance/separation from the LGBTQ community so there is less confusion that I’m making a fashion statement and not a sexual statement.
#DeGenderFashion is what we all want, but I want to take it even further. To de-sexualize fashion. I think this is where I differ from the LGBTQ community. The LGBTQ community has used fashion as a form of expressing their sexuality. Again, I have no problem with that. But clothing/fashion should not dictate gender #DeGenderFashion AND sexual orientation. A person is free to wear what they want, thanks to the LGBTQ community, but fashion, as a causality, is seen as an expression of sexual orientation as a result of their struggles.
So when I said that the LGBTQ community has made it hard on me, I was stating my fight to de- sexualize fashion where people can wear what they want without having their sexuality questioned. I’m fighting a separate war, and it’s against the stigma that the LGBTQ community fought for. And of course, not wanting to disrespect the LGBTQ community, but it’s hard to make that distinction.
The interview was over 2 hours long and it was shortened to about 6-7 minutes of footage to be shown. So a lot of cut and paste was done, so that some answers I gave did not have all the content that would make the conversation clear and not taken out of context, as in this case.
In the interview, when I started by saying “It’s not the clothes” I was answering a different question. I was trying to explain what makes it more threatening for a trans female than for me. I’ve been photographed in some very flamboyant outfits along with some very short skirts, but I’d never wear them out on the streets. I try to dress more conservatively and not draw as much attention to myself. Yes, I will draw some looks because of what I’m wearing, but then I also show a lot of confidence in what I’m wearing. Besides that, who wants to attack an old, bald man wearing high heels?
In one part of the interview, when saying something about the LGBTQ community I accidentally left off the T and only said LGB. This was not on purpose as many have assumed. I’m just not good with acronyms and since it’s not something I say very often, I just messed up!
I saw that you posted an apology on your instagram, how else have you been reconciling the situation?
I’ve been trying to educate myself more on the matter. Before this, I wasn’t interested in the details of the struggles of the LGBTQ community as I thought it doesn’t have anything to do with what I’m doing. I’m seeing this as a lesson learned and an opportunity, as this experience has helped me to understand what they have been through and how they feel about others. It has helped me to grow. In my position, as an influencer, I should be better educated on this. So this is my focus as of late.
The interview was over 2 hours long and it was shortened to about 6-7 minutes of footage to be shown. So a lot of cut and paste was done, so that some answers I gave did not have all the content that would make the conversation clear and not taken out of context, as in this case.
In the interview, when I started by saying “It’s not the clothes” I was answering a different question. I was trying to explain what makes it more threatening for a trans female than for me. I’ve been photographed in some very flamboyant outfits along with some very short skirts, but I’d never wear them out on the streets. I try to dress more conservatively and not draw as much attention to myself. Yes, I will draw some looks because of what I’m wearing, but then I also show a lot of confidence in what I’m wearing. Besides that, who wants to attack an old, bald man wearing high heels?
In one part of the interview, when saying something about the LGBTQ community I accidentally left off the T and only said LGB. This was not on purpose as many have assumed. I’m just not good with acronyms and since it’s not something I say very often, I just messed up!
I saw that you posted an apology on your instagram, how else have you been reconciling the situation?
I’ve been trying to educate myself more on the matter. Before this, I wasn’t interested in the details of the struggles of the LGBTQ community as I thought it doesn’t have anything to do with what I’m doing. I’m seeing this as a lesson learned and an opportunity, as this experience has helped me to understand what they have been through and how they feel about others. It has helped me to grow. In my position, as an influencer, I should be better educated on this. So this is my focus as of late.
What kind of conversations did the interview bring about for you? And did it affect any of your relationships offline or in your personal life?
I had a few brands that I have been working with express that they were disappointed in what I had said. Most of them that know me well agreed that the words I chose to use were inappropriate, but could see how what I said could be taken out of context.
As far as personally, I’ve had nothing but support as those that know me and, more importantly, understand how communicate, know what I said was not to be taken as hateful or disrespectful to anyone or any group.
You’ve continued to state your message that clothing should not define one’s gender or sexuality. Surely that’s tied to the way you dress currently, but is there more to how and when that became an important principle of yours?
It became more and more evident that what I was doing on Instagram was helping so many that wanted to wear non-gender conforming clothing but were afraid to have their sexuality questioned. I get over 100 direct messages a day on my Instagram account and a large number of them are followers that have thanked me for the courage to go out wearing something regardless of what others may think. Others still have this fear, however. This needs to change and thus has become one of my goals to de-sexualize clothing. But then I’m also helping everyone (regardless of sexual orientation or gender) that we all should feel comfortable wearing what we want.
On another note, you walked in your first-ever fashion show for Ninamounah FW 22. How was that experience?
It was a blast. At the rehearsals having the choreographer tell you how to walk, with timing and making nice turns, being focused, was interesting and fun. Meeting all the models and asking advice from many. I was at an extreme disadvantage, as almost everyone knew who I was, but I didn’t know anyone. But then after the show and seeing the footage I was amazed that more than half the models just did their own thing. I did what I was told but almost broke into a smile during the finale.
Are you paying attention to the runways and what goes on in the fashion world?
I am paying attention to the fashion designs and trends for men, but particularly seeing more and more skirts on the runway.
Would you like to walk in a show again someday? If so, is there any brand you have in mind?
Yes, I would be interested in doing this again. I think the most challenging for the brands would be to style for me. Taking some of their men’s shirts and jackets and matching them to the women’s skirts and heels may not fit their theme for that collection they won’t show. Of course, big brands like Gucci, Balenciaga, Balmain, Prada, and Alexander McQueen.
If you could wear only one pair of heels for the rest of your life, what would they be?
I’m very tempted to say an 8.5cm to 10cm stiletto pump. But if I had only one pair to wear everywhere, I would have to go with a black leather ankle boot with a wide heel (but not a block heel) and about 9cm high. Either a boot from Jimmy Choo or a boot from Louboutin
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